Canadutch
I’m not going to give any names in this post, or links to any blogs, because I want to concentrate on the topic rather than the person and get some opinions.
Recently I was reading a blog that I had bookmarked a while back when looking for diet buddies. On her blog she was looking for opinions on a topic that had recently come up on one of the forums she frequents. The topic was taking photos of people, and putting them on the internet, without their consent. In this case, it was ‘fat people‘ (her words).
During her public transit travels she had taken some photos (with what looks like a camera phone) which was titled “Photos dealing with public transit in all its forms.”.
She claimed that people on one of her weight loss forums got upset because of the photos she had taken, which she considered to be artistic and perfectly fine. So I decided to go have a look.
When I looked through the photos, there were various photos… people waiting for busses, bus tickets, signs and yes, photos of women who are overweight. As I was looking at them I noticed that the photos of the thin people had no comments, they were just dated. The other photos, of the overweight women did have comments.
Some examples:
1) A photo of a large black woman, around 50-ish, sitting on what looks like a bus. She’s wearing a one piece dress which looks like it would be just above the knee when standing up, which has ridden up somewhat as she sat down. Her face is plainly visable in the photo and she obviously has no idea her photo is being taken. The comment below states:
Just wanted to point out that mini dresses really aren’t flattering – especially on…er…bigger…people. The bottons were straining and looked like they might pop off, and if it weren’t for the size of her thighs, I could have seen her crotch! That’s just WRONG. Cover your privates, people! Or at least cross your legs.
2) A photo of another large black woman in her late teens or early 20’s. Nicely dressed in a pair of jeans, a white shirt and a pair of sunglasses and listening to an mp3 player. She does not look very happy. The comment below states:
This girl saw me and moved seats! Gotta keep the flash turned off. This is an example of how TO dress. Unlike the lady with the mini dress, this woman not only looks good, but has her private parts COVERED.
3) A photo of two young black girls standing on a sidewalk talking with a third person who is off the side of the photo. One girl is shown from the front and is wearing somewhat tight 3/4 lenth jeans, a red sleeveless top and red sneakers. The other is seen from the back wearing a pair of loose white summer pants and a matching loose white top. The second girl’s face can’t be seen, but the face of the girl facing the camera is visable. It’s obvious that neither of these girls know they are being photographed. The comment below states:
Two girls wait for the bus in Oakland. Look at that one girl’s thighs. Eek. And they were so young – far too young to be heading toward diabetes and heart disease. What has America come to that diabetes now appears in teenagers? We’re ruining our health. This is the result of the low-fat diet that’s been pushed for the last 30 years.
On her blog she asked people for their opinions. She didn’t understand why people would be offended by it or think she was wrong to do it, and saw herself as being no different from reporters or journalists who report things on TV every day.
I replied and was quite candid with her. I told her that I thought it was wrong of her to take photos of people in that manner. In every country the laws differ in regards to what is legal and what isn’t when it comes to taking photos, but my comments came from my thoughts and feelings personally. I felt that taking photos of people in a public place is fine, but taking photos of people and including their faces then proceeding to post them online with comments like the above was just wrong. Period.
I also told her that if I was the young girl in the jeans and saw her trying to snap a photo of me on the sly and got up and moved my seat, and then saw her trying to sneak another photo, she’d probably end up eating the camera. I didn’t mean it literally of course, I was just trying to get my point across on how irritating and frustrating it would be for the subject of the photo to have a complete stranger on the bus repeatedly trying to sneak photos of you.
On her blog other people posted stating that her photos were artistic and beautiful, which I failed to see. In all honesty they were just quickie pics snapped with a camera phone and were obviously quick and trying to be hidden. In my opinion there wasn’t really anything tasteful or artistic about them at all, but then again that could just be my view of it.
So, summary? I think taking photos of people in public in many cases is fine… if they see you and don’t try to stop you, that’s great…. but taking photos of people and posting them online with their faces plainly visable and proceeding to criticize them is pretty dangerous territory.
The ‘discussion’ ended in her deleting my comments and making posts on her blog about giving me lessons on debate and a big spiel about people reacting emotionally. Which I was, of course… as a big woman I could easily put myself in the place of the women in these photos and I found myself angry on their behalf, but I don’t think it made my points any less valid.
What are your thoughts on photographing people in public?
Would you continue to photograph a stranger if they made it clear they didn’t want you to?
Do you think it’s ok to photograph people on the sly and then post their photos online?
Do you think it makes a difference and is ok if their face isn’t in the photo?
What would you do if you found your photo being used on someone’s blog like the examples I gave above?
Please reply, I’m very curious about what other people feel about this…
my husband has taking pictures of women without them knowing it and I need advice. Is this against the law. I found them under the bed. He has taking pic.’s through our window of neighbors and of women at the store, and the pool. They have know idea. I don’t know what to do. is this even normal. I need advice please. Cindy
i think that it is wrong
i shoot lots of pix. i rarely ask permission as it henders the candid photo…. although if i capture a bad picture i delete it i dont want my fuzzy pics seen nor would a person want a pic of them picking thier nose seen ect…. i take pix too make people look great not just good or ok some pix i have taken of women flashing breast acting nutty ect men running naked at events even, but all was in public. so in my view fair game and news worthy! i classify all my pix as news documentary therefore there are no legal issues. however i would never write negative comments about a person. i can say this i have been attacked / approached by boyfriends husbands police officers and legal know it alls. taking pictures is dangerous work… i will say this anytime anyone has said dont take my / our pic i have honored thier request. even though i was really not in the wrong. i do respect the people who are camera shy. then again this very night i shot a pic of a guy and two girls the guy after the flash went off flipped me off, a few hours later he approached me asking if i would take a few shots of the three of them. does any of that make any sense? i took a few shots more and deleted them later. as i’m more into natural candid shots not a pose….. i know its just a matter of time before we will no longer be able too shoot public pictures legaly however the government will have cameras on every corner photographing our every move in some places they aready are. i hope all the photographers will join together too fight in keeping our rights too shoot public pix….. these are my thoughts may you all take great pix and enjoy your camera!
I was wondering what people think of taking the photos for a wife whos husband is cheating on her, secret gambling their childrens college funds away, or even someones child doing drugs. I think this is an ethical practice for the benefit of the victim and pretty sure its legal in the states. What do you think?
I think it’s incredibly rude and insensitive to take pictures solely for the thrill of mocking the subjects and to then post them on the internet is just gross. Let’s hope what comes around goes around.
Thanks for the replies everyone. I’m glad it’s not just me who feels this way. I wish I knew these women so I could tell them what was going on and they could take some kind of action so this woman would know just how wrong what she’s doing is. Ah well.
What’s sad is that we met in a diet group, for someone who supposedly struggles with her weight, you’d think she would be a little more thoughtful about this in particular.
If the person is the subject of the photo consent should always be sought especially if you intend to publish it later.
There have been a number of cases around the world which have resulted in damages being awarded when the subject was unaware that the photograph was being taken.
Despite the ptoential legal aspect I believe that simple common courtesy should apply.
I have lots of photos with people in them, but they are not the object of the photo.
It’s best to be kind and sensitive when taking photos – especially if they might be minors – I recently took a picture of some statuary and went out of my way to make sure that no little kids were in the shot – it made it not such a great shot I’ll have to go back at a time where fewer kids are around.
Intent really is everything. The captions say it all.
I have taken pics of people in public in the sly and posted them to my flickr account. If they made it clear they did not want me taking their pic, I would stop.
To do so and RIDICULE them, is WRONG. SOOO wrong.
Interesting discussion. I posted a note to see what everyone thinks.
Taking surreptitious pictures with a camera phone is already iffy. Pursuing a subject who doesn’t want to be photographed is just dead wrong. Posting disparaging commentary such as the examples you mention indicates a problem within the person. I find it’s often hard to engage these people in a fair-minded “debate”. It’s probably better to do what you are doing here — use your own space to offer an alternative view.
Hello Breigh – Just paying the visit. I love to take pictures as you may have seen from my other blog “Arizona It’s a dry heath!” I take plenty of pictures of people, not necessarily strangers. My take is this if you are trying send the message across but you don’t have the person’s perimission to post the picture at least crop it so that the person’s identity is safe. I think that a picture is worth a thousand words, and it can also hurt if used unproperly. In this case by showcasing someone’s obesity.
Come back and visit soon. Oh and dont’ worry I probably have enough Mc Pheever for the both of us.
Absolutely NOT! It’s one thing if people happen to get caught in a picture you’re taking of someone you know, or scenery – like in a park or at the zoo or something. But to intentionally take pictures of people UNAWARE is totally wrong! And to continue once you’ve been asked to stop … well… this is just driving me nuts now.
Definately, bitch. She’s probably ugly too. Most people who go to great lengths to criticize others do so for the simple reason that they feel bad themselves. Its cliche to say, but think about it. When you make fun of people you don’t know, which everyone does from time to time, are you generally in a good mood or a bad one? Maybe I’m just speaking for myself, but the more I criticize the more likely things aren’t going my way.
While I don’t think you should necessarily have to ask someone’s opinion before photographing them, I don’t think you should be doing it in order to ridicule them.
This is my version of the golden rule, since I wouldn’t mind it if someone photographed me in public, but would mind if they were doing so in order to make me look bad.
I agree total with you, she is a bitch.
I don’t randomly take pictures of people but if I did and the person moved away, I wouldn’t try and take his or her picture again. Obviously they made it pretty clear they didn’t want their picture taken in the first place.
As a semi-professional photographer, in studio and out, if I take pictures of a person, a dog, a cat, or anyone, I always get consent. If it’s a friend, usually a “hey, i’m going to post your picture on the net. that’s cool right” and they usually agree.
For strangers, after much experience, I always ask before I shoot. I know some photographers are out there screaming. But you know, after being chased down, nearly sued, and berated many many times, I’ve learned my lesson.
This is not to say that I have never posted pictures without people’s permission. Obviously if the subject of the picture is not them, and they are walking by or just happened to appear in a shot, I think that’s ok. After all, they are not the subject of he shot and they are incidental.
There are many many hairs we can split about this issue. I agree that anyone who appears in public does give up a limited amount of their privacy in photos or video. but there are limits. Again, we could go on about this all day. :)
The real issue are the remarks attached to the pictures. Seriously. Attaching any remark, whether they are good or bad, should never accompany a picture of a complete stranger who is the subject of the pic without consent. If that’s the case, you’re no better than the paparazzi out there making up stories about so many celebrities. Of course, this could be argued too.
I guess the question is, how far is too far?
~it’s sick that someone actually thought intentionally photographing people, w/out consent, merely because of their weight and then ridiculing them on a web site would come off as funny or worth mentioning is almost completely laughable…shame on the person who did it, I hope karma comes back and bites them in the ass, which is all you can hope for…
treat others as you would want to be treated, that’s also my motto and one I carry w/ me when I document people through my street portraiture, and I shoot quite a lot of street portraiture ( http://www.utata.org/show/speaks/btezra/1.php ) , always taking the time to meet, introduce myself, ask questions and listen to my subjects before I even introduce my camera and intent to photograph…for me it’s important to understand your subjects and in this case the person who performed this cruel and unusual display of inhumanity never cared to perform such a function, there’s nothing artsy or interesting about what she did…
I do understand that when in public a person gives up the right to privacy to a large degree and a photographer does not need a signed consent form from a subject, but there’s a sense of decency involved w/ the creative process that should demand the photographer at least acknowledge before or afterwards to their subject about their intent w/ the image taken…or at least that is my humble opinion.~
I think there are two issues here. The first is that people have a right to privacy and to not have pictures of themselves published against their consent.
The second is, this is the work of a small mind looking for justification to be mean spirited! Such comments about fat people denigrates them as human beings.
I think a lot of times people will post pictures of strangers with the confidence of relative anonymity and the vastness of the internet, thinking that the subjects of these photos will never see them. While I am also guilty of posting photos of strangers without permission, model releases, et al, I never do so with disparaging commentary. I know how much I dislike having my picture taken at all, much less having some stranger take, post and deride my image!
Imagine the outrage at pictures of say, amputees or breastfeeding mothers, where the poster rails on about how they should cover up, and how no one wants to see that, etc. I’m sure it happens. But in Western culture (and I say that because the internet is international/crosscultural), the overweight are viewed as fair targets for critisism. It’s rude, hurtful and… wrong.
Exchange the concept of ‘fat’ with any other descriptor and you would be vilified!
So if you are going to post pictures of strangers without thier permission, tread lightly, because what goes around, comes around, in one way or another.
You were right to confront your friend and kudos for being honest and confronting her on the issue… It is really hard to do that especially for someone you love!
When I do anything I stick with the golden rule! Do unto others as you would have them do unto you … said another way — look out for the interest of others not just your own interests… I wonder how your friend would feel is she had been the subject of the criticism she posted.
My photography goal is to always ask permission to take photos so I think it is wrong to take “hidden camera” photos of individuals especially since they might not be willing to have their photo taken.
Hope that helps!
Saw you post on Utata and came here to see what you had to say.
I think that taking people’s photographs and posting them on the web without their permission is unethical, whether they object or not, it’s alway better to get their agreement. Posting them and then disparaging the person in the photograph is very wrong. But then, making fun of other people’s appearance indicates, I think, a serious problem with oneself. Whomever this person that you refer to is, she’s got a problem. I always say to myself: I’m sure glad he/she doesn’t live next door.
As a writer / photographer for a local newspaper, I am constantly taking photos of people without them knowing it. Sometimes, they are published in the paper, occasionally on the front page.
Never would I take a picture with the intent to ridicule and point out flaws of the subject. That’s cruel.
One of my goals, as a photographer, is to get better at the whole candid photography thing. But I hope to do it for art’s sake, not to be nasty.
Some people are just mean.